Friday, March
25, 2005
JONI EARECKSON TADA
TAKES ON THE BATTLE OVER TERRI SCHIAVO
ON CNN'S LARRY KING LIVE
Tells Larry
King: "Life Is The Most Irreplaceable And Fundamental Condition
Of What It Means To Be Human"
By Michael
Ireland
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA (ANS) --
Joni Eareckson Tada, well-known for her Christian
disability ministry around the world, took on the case for re-inserting
Terri Schiavo's feeding tube before an audience of millions during a
cable television program that aired March 24, 2005. (Pictured:
Larry King with disability activist and Christian author, speaker and
painter Joni Eareckson Tada. Credit: CNN).
 Eareckson Tada, who
founded Joni And Friends to help raise the visibility and awareness of
those with disabilities, was a guest on CNN'S Larry King Live program.
Tada is the author of many books, including "When is it Right to Die?"
which has a foreword by former U.S Surgeon General, C. Everett Koop.
Also on the program with Larry King and Eareckson Tada was Jackie Cole,
who suffered a brain hemorrhage which left her on a respirator and a
feeding tube, and was also diagnosed as being in a persistent
vegetative state. The program also featured Kate Adamson who, in 1995,
at age 33, suffered a devastating double brain stem stroke that left
her paralyzed, and Dr. Ronald Cranford, a neurologist and medical
ethicist.
BACKGROUND ON THE SCHIAVO FEEDING-TUBE CONTROVERSY
Doctors claim that Terri Schiavo, 41, who lives in a hospice in
Pinellas Park, Florida, is in such a state. Her husband, Michael,
concurs, but her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, disagree, saying that
Terri has responded to them on more than one occasion.
As the program aired, the United States Supreme Court and a Florida
judge denied the desperate pleas of Terri Schiavo's parents, seven days
after her feeding tube was disconnected, to reinsert the tube which is
keeping her alive.
At the start of the program Larry King said: "Joni, we'll start with
you. You're interesting -- you were not left for dead. You were not on
a list where a tube was going to be pulled. So, what is your particular
interest in this, just as one human for another? "
Tada responded: "Well, I'm a disability advocate, and there are 26
disability organizations all across the United States from the National
Organization on Disability, all the way to the Joni and Friends
Disability Center, who believe that Terri Schiavo's rights have been
denied as a disabled person. We've heard from her parents, we've heard
from her husband, but people with disabilities believe that her case
ought to be heard in a federal court."
King asked: "Do you discount all the courts, every court that has heard
it, the United States Supreme Court, all of that doesn't mean anything?"
"I believe that they've been making their assessments on the rulings of
Judge Greer, who, as we know, has been giving this ruling of persistent
vegetative state," said Tada.
"But 15 years, other judges have heard it, other judges have ruled.
Aren't we a nation of laws?" King retorted.
"Therefore, we obey the law, right?" King asked.
"Yes, we do, and I believe that Terri -- Terri's Constitutional right
to life as a person with a disability has been denied," Tada said,
adding: "Her last review medically was 15 years ago with a CAT scan,
but there are new state-of-the-art medical assessment tools which, I
believe, should be applied to her case. Let's see what her cognitive
abilities really are."
"So, at this point, you disagree with the court?" King asked, to which
Tada responded: "Yes, I do."
"But it is a disagreement," said King. "You don't think the court is
malicious, I hope."
"I think the court has lacked mercy. No mercy," Tada said.
Tada agreed that she had not attended the cases, "I have been at the
hospice, but no, I've just been reading the court records."
KING DISCUSSES OTHER, SIMILAR CASES
King turned his attention to Jackie Cole, who emerged from a persistent
vegetative state.
"Jackie, you're a little puzzling -- you went through all this, right?
You were considered persistent vegetative state. How did you come out
of it?
"I just woke up one day. That's all," and agreed that before she saw
videos of Terri Schiavo, had thought Schiavo should be disconnected
from the feeding tube that was keeping her alive.
"I hadn't realized that she was quite as alert as she seemed to be. I
hadn't seen any films of her until just now, and I'm pretty satisfied
that the lady is definitely with us. I thought at one time that there
was absolutely nothing going on, but I can't say that after having seen
her," Cole told King.
"Before that," King asked Cole, " it was your opinion that she should
be allowed to die?"
"Yes, but under the circumstances, I think that she's got a real strong
case for living," Cole responded.
King introduced Kate Adamson who, in 1995, at age 33, suffered a
devastating double brain stem stroke that left her paralyzed. She not
only survived, she made what has been called a miraculous recovery,
regaining mobility and function. She's the author of the book "Kate's
Journey: Triumph Over Adversity." I have the book right here.
King asked Adamson if she was brain dead or in a vegetative state?
"Well, first of all, my husband wouldn't let me be labeled with
anything," said Adamson.
"You've got a woman here who is being labeled as in a persistent
vegetative state. I think based on what's going on, we need to find out
what she can and can't do. I had less than one in a million odds to
survive. My husband hugged the doctor, he said, praise God, she's going
to be the one. He did everything possible to see that I got the
necessary care. He was fighting...
"Larry, I was totally trapped in my body, aware of everything going on
around me, unable to communicate with the outside world. I had to live
through the horror of having a feeding tube inserted without enough
anesthesia, so I felt everything being done to me, could not say
anything. That feeding tube was turned off for eight days. I laid there
and literally thought I was going insane. My body was screaming out.
I'm on the inside screaming out, don't let me die. I don't want to die.
"That's amazing," said King.
"Yes, but what's amazing is, I got into rehab. You're looking at a
woman (who has) been lying in a hospice in a nursing facility. You've
shut me off from the sunlight, with no human contact, no radio, no TV.
I had to have contact. I had to hear that I was going to survive,"
Adamson said.
"Therefore, are you saying, in a sense, Kate, with your miraculous
(recovery) -- no one should be allowed to die?" King asked.
"Err on the side of life. Err on the side of life," Adamson said.
"In all cases? Even with a living will?" King asked.
"First of all, at 33, I wasn't thinking about dying. I was thinking
about living," Adamson said, adding: "Every case is different. This is
a feeding tube. I was on life support. "
"Before somebody's death is proposed, we ought to be using
state-of-the-art technology that will properly assess somebody's mental
capabilities," Eareckson Tada added.
MEDICAL OPINION SOUGHT FROM NEUROLOGIST AND MEDICAL ETHICIST
Larry King also introduced Dr. Ronald Cranford, a neurologist and
medical ethicist who examined Schiavo on behalf of the Florida courts.
"I examined her in July of 2002 in the evidentiary hearing before Judge
Greer was in October 2002," Cranford said.
KING: And what did you find?
CRANFORD: Well, I found what all the other neurologists except for one
found, that she was in a persistent vegetative state. We reviewed the
records, we reviewed the CAT scans, we reviewed the EEGs. Four
neurologists who had been examining her over 12 years said she was in a
vegetative state and three of the four neurologists called the trial
clean.
"The court appointed expert, Dr. Bambikidis from Cleveland said she was
in a permanent vegetative state. And Judge Greer, in the longest
evidentiary hearing in American law in a right to die case, said she
was in a vegetative state to the highest degree of medical certainty.
"And the appeals court reviewed all the medical testimony, reviewed the
tapes and reviewed everything and they said that she was in a
persistent vegetative state. So that was in October 2002 and then 2003."
KING: Dr. Cranford, if she were kept alive, what kind of life would it
be and what is your estimate as to how long she could live?
CRANFORD: Normally a patient's life -- lives five to ten years. It's
unusual, but it can occur that they live 15 years. She's been like this
for 15 years with no change. She can live like this another five, or
ten years, but she'll never regain consciousness. She's completely
unconscious.
KING: So those pictures of years ago, even where we see -- and you saw
her three years ago -- smiling and the like or seeming to react, are
what?
CRANFORD: Well, it's a typical vegetative state, because her eyes are
open. If you look at her eyes very closely, even when she appears to
smile at her mother, she's not really smiling at her mother, she
looking into space.
"As you can see, she has no visual pursuit. So, a neurologist can look
at those clips and say that she's in a vegetative state, but to the
family and to a lot of people, it looks like the interact(ion) -- it
looks she's laughing, smiling. But Judge Greer reviewed all this
information and said she's in a vegetative state. So that's a typical
vegetative state patient, just like Nancy Cruzan and all the others I
have examined where they really aren't interacting, but they look like
they're interacting."
JONI EARECKSON TADA DEFENDS 'CULTURE OF LIFE'
Larry King then turned his attention back to Joni Eareckson Tada, and
the following exchange occurred about what other tests could have been
carried out on Terri Schiavo.
KING: Joni -- he's a doctor, you are not. He's a doctor, you are not.
What exam do you want him to perform that you said he hasn't done?"
TADA: A PET scan, an MRI. There are new modern technological tools to
assess somebody's mental capabilities.
KING: Then the question will be this. If the PET scan verified his
findings, would you then say it's OK to pull a tube?
TADA: I don't think it's right to a pull tube.
KING: Why the PET Scan, you aren't going to change anyway?
TADA: I think what we need to determine is what in the world did Terri
Schiavo want?
KING: So, why do a PET scan?
TADA: I would never want to live that way. How do you know what Terri
Schiavo (wanted)?
KING: But even if the PET scan said what he said was true, you'd still
want her to live?
TADA: I do believe she should live, because I don't think a PVS state
warrants a death sentence.
KING: Why not -- before you go Kate -- why not a PET scan, doctor?
CRANFORD: We can do a PET scan. We'd have to take her to New York. I
investigated that in 2002. I contacted New York Cornell Medical Center,
Atlanta, Miami. I recommended a PET scan.
"A PET scan might be of value, but honestly, in 2002, considering the
findings on examination, the CAT scan which showed massive atrophy and
the EEGs, which are flat, I didn't think a PET scan would be of much
value.
"And in 2002, Larry, both sides would never have agreed to send her to
New York Cornell Medical Center, which is the only place in the country
that could PET scan.
"This is just a smoke screen, Larry. If we did a PET scan and it showed
consistent vegetative state, they still wouldn't want us to stop
treatment. So all this is smoke screen, the MRI, the PET scan, they're
never going to agree she's in a vegetative state no matter what we do.
KING: Kate, how would you respond? Hold it, doctor. Kate?
COLE: You know what, doctor, just because someone is unresponsive, it
doesn't mean to say there isn't a soul in there. None of us can get
inside Terri Schiavo's head.
KING: Of course not.
TADA: But when we look at those videos, it does raise doubt about the
diagnosis of persistent vegetative state.
KING: But he's a doctor.
TADA: That may be, but he's offering a subjective, bias.
KING: How do you know?
TADA: Because he's got the quality of life perspective that says, oh,
people are better off dead than disabled.
KING: Do you know him?
TADA: No, I don't. But those assessments by medical professionals
assume that people with disabilities such as myself and others wouldn't
want to live this way.
Larry King then asked Dr. Cranford: "Doctor, why not do what the
president said, simply, come down on the side of life.
CRANFORD: We did come down on the side of life. The longest right to
die case in the history of American law, seven years in the Florida
courts, Judge Greer bent over backwards every time to help the
Schindler family. And he finally said he had enough. The courts have
ruled that the Florida judicial system had extensive hearings. We have
erred on the side of life for seven years. We can't err more on the
side of life than we already have.
KING: Why not ten years, why not fifteen years?
COLE: Well Larry, this is a feeding tube. We're not talking about life
support. What is the harm in treating here?
"Let me ask you, doctor, because I actually went through rehab. I had
to hear that I was going to get better. I had wonderful people working
with me. A team of 15 people: a speech pathologist, occupational
therapists, physical therapists. Now we know Terri at one point was
swallowing Jell-O, we know she was saying some words. What happened to
the speech pathologist?
"What happens when you put a skilled nursing facility, in a hospice, in
that kind of environment? Why not put her with the family who want to
love for her as she is in the condition she's in right now? What is the
harm? And let's find out what Terri can do?"
King asked if Kate Adamson and Joni Eareckson Tada would agree to that?
TADA: Yes, in fact, (with) the durable power of attorney for health
care, you have an opportunity to designate a trusted loved one, one
with whom you share life values as your health care proxy. And that
takes a lot of worry and anxiety away should you become mentally
incompetent.
ADAMSON: I'm certainly glad I was married to an attorney, because
without him, I wouldn't be here. I'm sorry, doctor, because if I was
under your care, I would be dead. You've got to have a strong advocate,
Larry.
TADA: We don't know what Terri would have wanted.
KING: The courts had to make some determination. What do you do if
you're a judge?
TADA: I don't think Terri would have said back then.
KING: You don't know. That's a guess.
TADA: If I become mentally incapacitated, I want you to take up with
another woman, have two kids by her, and starve me to death, and let me
die of thirst. I don't think she would have said that.
"We do not know that she would want to die of thirst and starvation.
The courts have not looked at that.
KING: Why are you attacking the husband, though?
TADA: No, I'm attacking the fact that the courts have not thoroughly
looked at her case.
KING: You emphasize trusted friend as if this is not a trusted friend.
ADAMSON: Well, you need to have an advocate when you can't speak for
yourself, Larry.
KING: So you're saying he's not an advocate for her? So what is he
gaining out of this?"
ADAMSON: Well, he gained a lot of money out of it. We know that.
KING: But that was in a lawsuit against the doctor for not treating her
right.
ADAMSON: Exactly, but first of all, you don't treat somebody. This
woman was young, she was beautiful, she had youth on her side. You
don't treat someone.
Joni Eareckson Tada added: " I just believe the federal courts did not
listen to her case. The husband, yes.
ADAMSON: Larry, we have a lot of disabled people. And they're doing
therapy and haven't gotten everything back, but do we get rid of them?
KING: We're all talking about two people we don't know. Right? We don't
know them.
ADAMSON: Right, but we're talking to a lot of disabled people out there
listening who are on feeding tubes.
DOCTOR DISCUSSES CONTRARY MEDICAL OPINION
Larry King then asked, "Dr. Cranford, what do you make of what the
other doctor said yesterday, who changed his mind? "
CRANFORD: It's bogus. He didn't do an examination. He did a 90-minute
interview. He didn't review the CAT scans. He certainly (didn't) make
any mention of the EEG. His examination actually shows she didn't
track, no conscious awareness, but the presence of a living cell. And
Judge Greer has been fully educated with the vegetative state. He has
dismissed it because it isn't credible. It was at the last minute. They
finally find a bioethicist -- a Christian bioethicist, who (was)
willing to say she wasn't in a vegetative state. It was a last minute
desperation effort, and Judge Greer didn't fall for it. He's been well
educated on the vegetative state.
KING: Doctor, you're saying there's no doubt in your mind about the
condition of Terri Schiavo?
CRANFORD: There's no doubt in my mind. And you've got copies of the CAT
scans there on CNN that were just recently released. There's no doubt
in my mind that she's in a vegetative state. There's no doubt in the
Florida Courts that she's in a vegetative state.
Larry King asked Kate Adamson what her CAT scan showed?
ADAMSON: I'm not going to get into my thing.
KING: Well, that's why you're here.
ADAMSON: Yes, that's why I'm here. But we need to bring my husband on,
who's sitting right out here…You want him to get into the side of it,
because I was the patient, unable to speak, and I'm telling you,
doctor, just because someone is unresponsive, it doesn't mean to say
they're not inside there.
KING: Had you told your husband to keep you alive under all
circumstances?
ADAMSON: Well, first of all, he would do what was right. No, no, you
exhaust every possible avenue.
KING: Had you told him anything about that?
ADAMSON: I didn't think I was going to get sick. At 33, I was living
life. You exhaust every possible avenue. Doctor, you let someone go,
there's no second chances.
KING: Then, therefore, you would be against capital punishment because
if you kill an innocent person, as already, we've determined, 150
people have been released...
ADAMSON: Starvation is cruel.
KING: Wait a minute -- there's no second chance, right? How do you
redress that grievance?
ADAMSON: We've got somebody on a feeding tube. Larry, she's not on life
support.
TADA: A man who's on capital punishment -- on death row -- has access
to the latest technology, DNA evidence.
KING: But, what if you killed him, and he didn't do it? What is his
redress of grievance?
TADA: Well, that -- that's it. The point is, if Terri Schiavo dies,
life...
KING: But what I'm saying is, why not be against all death?
TADA: Life is the most irreplaceable and fundamental condition of what
it means to be human.
ADAMSON: Err on the side of life.
KING: So, err on the side of life.
TADA: Err on the side of life. We do not know that Terri Schiavo, years
ago, when she was on her feet, would have wanted to die of thirst and
starvation. We do not know that.
**This report was prepared using a rush transcript from CNN. It has
been edited for this article to draw out the main points of
conversation and is not intended as a full record of the interview that
took place. Every effort has been made to maintain the accuracy of the
conversation that took place.
| ** Michael Ireland is an
international British freelance journalist. A former reporter with a
London newspaper, Michael is the Chief Correspondent for ASSIST News
Service of Garden Grove, CA. Michael immigrated to the United States in
1982 and became a US citizen in Sept., 1995. He is married with two
children. Michael has also been a frequent contributor to UCB Europe, a
British Christian radio station. |
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